This is a rush transcript. Copying may not be in final form.
Amy Goodman: This is the present time of democracy! , democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman.
A legal battle continues between the Trump administration and federal judges over the calling of the president of the 1798 alien enemy law to expel more than 130 Venezuelan immigrants from the United States into El Salvador’s largest security prison.
CBS suggests that a new court filing could invoke the state’s secret privilege to block a request from DC District Chief Judge James Boasberg for details on what happened Saturday, when the administration ignored the judge’s order to flip three flights to El Salvador. It is not clear if one of the flights left the Tarmac.
The Trump administration claims that all men sent under the alien enemy law were members of Venezuelan gangs, but there are growing numbers of press conferences questioning Trump’s claims.
Here in New York, Margaret Kargiori joins in leading policy and advocacy at the Immigration Defenderslow Center. Additionally, Juan Papia, the US deputy director of Human Rights Watch, is taking part in Washington, DC. He investigated the prison system in El Salvador.
Margaret Kargiori, let’s start with you. Tell us about the person who was sent to El Salvador’s largest security prison.
Margaret Cargioli: Our clients are in asylum seekers who entered the US via the US tropical border over a year ago via the CBP One app. He was taken into custody in Southern California, awaiting the judge’s right to hear his case regarding asylum. He has a tattoo and was flagged just because he has a tattoo. The only evidence submitted by the government at that time was a photograph of what they thought members of the Tren de Aragua gang had. And just for that reason, he was sent to a very dangerous place where we feared his safety, as he had no criminal history.
Amy Goodman: You don’t want to use his name. why?
Margaret Kargiori: We are seriously concerned about his happiness, safety, and he is an asylum seeker. He fled Venezuela for persecution. And we have to keep some of his case details private.
And it is very concerning that the US government is not sharing information. We didn’t know where he was from Friday until Monday when he was heard by the Immigration Court. That hearing was the first time the US government actually confirmed that he had been sent to El Salvador.
Amy Goodman: Now to understand, he has been deported – do you “deport” that term? – There was no deportation order?
Margaret Kargiori: There was no deportation order. There was no order of removal. He was not deported. He was sent there illegally. He still has a pending immigration court hearing. It will appear soon. And he has the right to seek asylum. What happened here is very unusual and concerning.
Amy Goodman: So my question is, why was he sent to El Salvador, among many other questions? Juan Papie, if you can talk about this prison, from your Human Rights Watch perspective, then is this Super Max prison in San Salvador where these prisoners were sent, and is it a deal with Bucquere that the Trump administration signed with President El Salvador?
Juan Pappier: Amy, thank you for welcoming me.
CECOT, a terrorist confinement center in El Salvador, is a mega prison that was launched in 2023. It was first announced for 20,000 detainees, and the president doubled his capacity to 40,000 detainees. There are 256 cells that detainees are expected to share beds. And access to media such as human rights clocks and human rights groups is strictly restricted. And the government has publicly said that those sent to CECOT will never be allowed. It was not possible to identify detainees who left CECOT.
But there are all reasons to believe that those detained there will be similar treatment as in other prisons in El Salvador. That is torture, death in prison, and the loss of death executed. CECOT people are completely blocked from other parts of the world and are refusing to legally reject them. This is an effort to create guantanamos on steroids and put these people outside the protection of the law in both the US and El Salvador.
Amy Goodman: So, in 2023, a US State Department report stated that El Salvador has harsh and life-threatening prison conditions. Can you share your thoughts with us, as the Trump administration agrees to pay President Naive Bukell’s government $6 million for a year of service, this lawyer, Margaret Kargiori, has disappeared from the United States?
Juan Pappier: This is an open violation of US obligations under international law, as it sends people to places where there is a serious risk of being tortured and exposed to human rights violations, in addition to violations by denial of the possibility of seeking asylum in the United States. We recorded the torture cases in El Salvador, the lost disappearances carried out, gloomy conditions of detention, and large arbitrary arrests of people with no connection to the Salvador gangs detained in these prisons. These are the dire conditions of these prisons and I am very concerned about the safety of these migrants sent there. It is worth noting that the US and El Salvador governments have not released a list of people sent there, nor have they released any indication that they are effectively part of a Venezuelan gang known as Tren de Aragua.
Amy Goodman: What killed 261 people like in a prison in El Salvador? Can you talk to me last year? Can you talk about what you know about torture, lack of medical appointments and abuse, not just CECOT, but at these other prisons where the US has contracted with the President of Salvador to house US prisoners?
Juan Pappier: A local human rights group in El Salvador has recorded 350 cases of detainees who have died in prison since March 2022, when the emergency began in El Salvador. The country has been in this emergency for three years. In other words, the constitutional due process rights have been suspended.
And we at Human Rights Watch documented many cases of those who died in prison, and identified evidence of national responsibility for some of these deaths. These cases were reviewed with forensic experts and identified evidence of possible torture leading to some of these violations. These are the conditions under which these people are detained, and they are life-threatening, just like the State Department brings life to its 2023 human rights report. So I think it’s very embarrassing to see Secretary of State Rubio say these are very good prisons. These are prisons in life-threatening conditions.
Amy Goodman: So, Margaret Kargiori, did you talk to your client?
Margaret Cargioli: We couldn’t talk to our clients. We reached out to the Department of Homeland Security, but yesterday we were told we couldn’t promote communication with our clients because he was ruled out.
We hope that through public pressure and federal lawsuits, we can speak to our clients immediately and find out exactly where he is, what conditions he is bound, and what happened, as you know. How about asylum seekers detained in the US disappearing for several days with immigration lawyers and entering the largest security prison in a third country?
Amy Goodman: Federal judge Boasberg, who is trying to get answers from the US government, says Attorney General Pam Bondy doesn’t need to respond with a specific answer about how these deportations took place. Can he play a role in getting your clients back?
Margaret Kargiori: Yes, our clients actually fall under the class in that case. So, we hope that through litigation, our clients can return to the US. The US government must comply with the law. They must comply with the federal court decision. And we know that judges are considering cases as to whether the government is emptiing the court for failing to comply with the ruling and information it is sought.
Amy Goodman: Well, we’ll continue in this case. Margaret Cargiori leads policy and advocacy lawyers at the Immigration Defenderslow Center and speaks to us here in New York. Juan Papia, the US deputy director of Human Rights Watch, speaks to us from Washington, DC
It does it for our show. Happy birthday to Tami Wolong! To view all your transcripts, podcasts, video and audio podcasts, you can visit DemocracyNow.org and sign up for our daily newsletter. I’m Amy Goodman. Thank you for participating.
